Anyone who has met me knows that I like to be logical. I also like to play with ideas or conduct Gedankenexperiment from time to time to see multiple sides of a situation.
Coming to America, one is surprised by how high-profile the abortion debate is in this country. Those who are pro-abortion state that a woman’s right to integrity of her body is paramount and sacrosanct. As I understand it, their view is also that a foetus is not a separate entity but an extension of the woman and her body. From this perspective then, the decision whether to abort or not is solely and ultimately the woman’s alone. As I understand it, many pro-abortionists (though not all) are feminists. For the sake of argument, I will conflate the two groups in this post.
From a logical perspective, no problems are encountered where upon learning that a woman is pregnant, both the father- and the mother-to-be agree that the foetus should be aborted. And likewise when both agree that the baby should be carried to full term.
Let us visit hypothetical situation X, where upon learning that a woman is pregnant, the father-to-be wants the woman have an abortion but the woman wants to keep the foetus. Pro-abortionists/feminists would argue that the foetus is a part of the woman’s body and further a woman’s right to bodily integrity is paramount. The woman is not bound to follow the father-to-be’s wishes. If the woman does keep the baby, then the man is forced to spend money on child-rearing, notwithstanding his express desire not to have the child.
Now consider the hypothetical situation Y, where upon learning that a woman is pregnant, the father-to-be wants the woman to carry the foetus to full term but it is now the woman who wants to have an abortion. Pro-abortionists/feminists would argue that the foetus is a part of the woman’s body and further a woman’s right to bodily integrity is paramount. The woman is not bound to follow the father-to-be’s wishes. The man is now forced to not spend money on child-rearing (this is different from the man not spending money on child-rearing at all), notwithstanding his express desire to have the child.
What I do not understand is why the decision whether to abort or not is solely and ultimately the woman’s alone.
If it takes two to make a baby, why should it only be the one to make the abortion decision? If, arguably, life is created at conception between a man (sperm) and a woman (ovum), then why is it that the destruction of such created life is at the choosing of only one? That is, if the ideal is that a man and a woman are equal partners in a relationship, then why is the man relegated to a position of powerlessness in matters of abortion? This powerlessness is reinforced by the legal system insofar as courts will award and enforce child support payments (even in situations where the man has expressed his desire not to have the child) and they have a bias to awarding custody to the mother.
This issue came to mind when I was eating dinner at a restaurant in Phoenix. The man next to us had a 2 month old baby in a capsule. We learned that his child was a result of a one night stand. The mother had told the man 2 weeks before the birth. After a paternity test and going through the courts, he was ordered to provide full child support and yet he was granted only weekend access to the child every alternate week. From appearances the man seemed happy to be a father and perhaps is a good father too. (What I want to know is whether the man is granted child support for the two days per fortnight he has the child or whether this has been absorbed into the calculus of his support payments.)
In this real life example, the decision whether to abort or not was solely the woman’s. In effect, the mother ‘forced’ the child upon the man. Yet the man cannot ‘force’ the child upon the woman. Is this fair as a matter of logic?
I invite your comments as I have much to learn.
9 comments
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6 September, 2007 at 5:23 pm
nakedthoughts
“If, arguably, life is created at conception between a man (sperm) and a woman (ovum), then why is it that the destruction of such created life is at the choosing of only one?”
This is not what pro-choice feminists argue. The crux of the pro-choice movment is that life (arguably) does NOT begin at conception. Thus it is the woman’s body and the woman’s choice to end a pregnancy.
6 September, 2007 at 5:40 pm
Uncommon Male
Thank you for your thoughtful clarification, Nakedthoughts.
Perhaps it is because of my Catholic experience, see infra, but is it not also valid to view ‘life’ as beginning at conception? From a genetic perspective, the foetus is an “other” with respect to the mother (hence the need for the placenta). How do pro-choice feminists reconcile this?
6 September, 2007 at 7:34 pm
gingermiss
Once a man deposits his sperm and the process begins, he is no longer forced to have any responsibility for the fetus whatsoever (from a physical – not legal – standpoint). He can theoretically walk away. It’s his choice.
A man can want to have a child but he cannot physically carry a fetus to term and birth it. A potential father having a legal “say” in whether or not a pregnancy is carried to term means that he is being granted the right to control a woman’s body. This is not interpretative; it’s just a fact. The real issue is whether or not you believe that is morally right.
I don’t essentially have an issue with a man being able to waive his rights as a father, but there are things that I believe have to be considered. A woman only has a certain amount of time to decide whether or not she’s going to abort a pregnancy, therefore a man should only have a certain amount of time from the moment he finds out about a pregnancy to waive his rights (and obligations) as a father.
Pro-choice feminists are not a hive mind. There is disagreement among pro-choice advocates on issue specifics, which is usually the case when it comes to any discussion of politics amongst any group.
1 November, 2007 at 9:59 pm
felicia
The man doesn’t carry the baby the man doesn’t gain weight,have mood swings,miss work,or have life problems because he had a baby so woman are the ones to choose ,after my mother had me she no longer could hold her bladder she then had to have surgery after awhile her bladder slipped and she had to have another, a friend of mine after having her baby now has a period that flows so heavy she soaks through a tampon and a pad in 1 hour doctors tell her that can happen after having kids its normal . constant abdominal cramping that won’t go away, stretch marks,leakage,depression, or scaring just some of the things not to mention that labor isn’t a small thing and is life threatening. Now when they find a way to transfer a fetus into a man and let him carry it then maybe the guy will have more say. It would be easier if all the things that came with pregnancy weren’t there then you could argue but the fact that to a man all he has to worry about is the baby for the rest of his life a woman not only has to take care of the baby but live with the change of her body.
5 November, 2007 at 4:35 pm
OrkneyGirl
I agree that it should be a mutual decision between the male and female as to whether or not to carry a child to term. Both partners’ feelings must be taken into consideration. That being said, I find in my life that I am doing the opposite. I just discovered yesterday that I am pregnant. I am a 40 year old mother of one who is in a longterm relationship. My partner in no way wishes to have a child as he himself is nearing 50 and has 2 grown children. Unfortunately, it has always been my dearest wish to have more family, so I find myself disregarding his wishes. Don’t get me wrong, I do not expect him to “step up to the plate” as is so commonly expected, and turn into my daddy-hero. No, I suspect that our relationship may end over this issue. He has made it very clear in the past couple of years that he desired no further family (although it was a deal-breaker for me in our earliest years and he was aware that I wasn’t interested in a relationship with someone who didn’t want another child). Unfortunately, our birth control was not up to the task and now we are in a very awkward position.
Well, well. What to do now? There is a moral dilemma, of course. I do not wish to cause my partner any suffering. At any time he could have (and should have) had a vasectomy as he was certain he did not wish children. I honestly did my part with birth control but was limited to the “mini pill”. I’ve also always told him that I would honour his wishes for no further family, but if something “happened” then I’m taking it as the windfall of the century.
I find myself disregarding his wishes. He would wish me to abort. I find I cannot. I will take myself and my daughter out of the home and will not force this new arrival upon him, no problem. He didn’t want this. He isn’t keen on all the baby stuff all over again. BUT, I am. This is my gift from above. My last chance. I was a single mother before, I can do it again. He will or won’t choose to pay child support, I’m not sure if I will press the issue. I would like us to remain as a family, but I am not sure this will happen.
So, obviously, although I totally agree in prinicple that it is the choice of both parties, in reality there are differences. he removed from me years ago my right to further family but now this unplanned pregnancy has occurred and I cannot undo it. Sometimes things are just meant to be. I consider myself very fortunate. Whether my relationship survives this or not, I will not hold resentment. I knew he would not be delighted at the news. It is understandable.
2 February, 2008 at 1:48 am
7monthstogo
Perhaps the reason the choice remains with the woman is not only because of the strong attachment, arduous pregnancy, and lifelong nurturing, but also because of the events that lead up to a pregnancy. When we ignore differences in the beginning of a relationship, we’ve already committed to the consequences of managing those differences in the future. If a man had a legal say in “financial abortion,” then should a couple consider drawing up a legal contract the first time they have sex to spell out their wishes in case of an unplanned pregnancy? It would surely save a lot of hassle!
I’m in this exact situation, and it’s horrible. We BOTH ignored the initial truths, and now we’re BOTH not happy. I chose to keep a baby he doesn’t want, thus, I have also chosen to potentially be a single parent forever. He now has a choice of how involved he wants to be. Financially, he could still dog out, right? Doesn’t that happen all the time? So really, he has no obligation whatsoever. (I have no clue about the child support system, because I am financially secure, and wouldn’t expect it from him. I may ask him to help from time to time, but certainly not a monthly percentage of his paycheck. Even I think that’s seems unfair in our situation.)
But what is fair? Considering our history, I feel like he is being unfair, too. I’m 36, have always wanted children. After several months of dating, I discovered that my boyfriend didn’t want kids within my timeframe of 4-5 years of wanting them. We broke up over it, only to get back together with his words of “sure, maybe someday, I’d do anything for you” and my willingness to “take it slow.” I told him more than once that if we had an accident, I would not abort, period, and he said that we’d work it out. And naturally, our “accident” was one of the most random accidents you can get! (2 days after my pd in a 30+day cycle?! Doc said sperm must have lived up to 6-7 days.) He pressured me so much to have an abortion that I was crying almost every day through January. Some days he was “ok” but then he’d vent at how he’s trapped and obligated, etc, etc. I don’t think his #1 concern is financial, but rather a combination of his that, his traveling job, and our relationship level, etc. I may need a little financial help in the future, but I wouldn’t expect the gov’t to get it for me. I would hope that we could work it out on our own. Instead of complete financial abortion, maybe the child support amount/percentage scale should adjust in this kind of situation. In other words, in some cases, depending on the situatiion, some women in would get a bit more, but in my situation, I would get a bit less. I made the choice to keep sleeping with him, knowing his view, just as he kept sleeping with me knowing mine, so it’s hard to draw the line on fairness. It’s a very serious debate, and I’m glad to find more information about it on the web. I’m also very happy to read the woman’s comments above. She is very mature and realistic about her future, and I wish her all the best.
5 May, 2008 at 7:33 pm
lorena james
have your baby, if you want Do not let anybody change your mind that child is depending on you ….not to kill it
6 June, 2008 at 1:51 am
Jeff
I am a pro-choice male. I’ve been in a relationship with my newly ex-Gf for about two years. Throughout our sexual history, we have not been careful. Typically, I would pull out. As the months passed, I expressed my ‘what if’ concerns and increased condom usage. She exclaimed that she would not ever use the pill, diaphrams. etc. I was always the one saying we should be more careful and she never initiated birth control or my needing to pull out or get a condom on when we started having sex. So, I should have known she was secretly hoping to get pregnant. Nonetheless, i was very forward in letting her know that I was against having a child anytime soon and that an abortion is a relatively good thing under certain circumstances. So, she knew where i stood this whole time. A week ago, she told me she’s pregnant as i suspected b/c she hadn’t had her period as usual. We immediately began to fight – neither of us compromised initially – we broke up, i told her to get out of my apt (I have no family or close friends nearby and it was my apt initially and I pay more rent and all the utilities whereas she grew up closeby and has family and friends nearby)..anyhow, I’ve tried to urge her to get an abortion with good reasoning. I’ve told her many logical reasons why it’s not a good time anytime soon. She wouldn’t listen. A few nights ago, we met for dinner again and talked it over back at my apt afterwards – it was like talking to someone who was an adolescent with fairytale dreams of everything will take care of itself. When I ask her to give me one good reason to have it, she can’t state one sensible one. We are both prochoice (or so she says, plus she had two abortions at 17 and 19; she’s now 26 and i’m 36). She’s also used the excuse that she won’t get pregnant afterwards if she aborts again (a common myth from what i understand is that abortion causes sterility). She brought up a coworker of her’s who’s had a few abortions already and is now having to pay 15k to get pregnant with her husband. I told her i’ve known several women who have had over 10 abortions (I’m a clinical psychologist and used to work with drug addicted prostitutes) so every woman is different in regards to their fertility after abortions. Anyhow, I have huge school loans and Im just starting my career with no savings (she has none either), and I don’t feel ready at all as I’ve told her (plus I’m not even sure If i ever want to have kids). She did admit she didn’t feel ready either and yet she still wudn’t listen when i explained why it’s a good idea to abort. My main reason for commenting here is that, although I am a full supporter of a woman’s right to choose to have an abortion for many logical reasons, I do not understand why the woman has complete control and power in determining whether she can have it or not. Women always say it’s my body during the pregnancy and/or abortion and, of course, that’s true. However, if the woman chooses to keep the child, it affects both parents’ lives completely and may change them drastically if they stay together. How can a man stay with a woman if he has expressed his complete opposition to a pregnancy that is unplanned and accidental and she completely disregards his thoughts and feelings and defies all logic and forces her decision on their relationship? I’m still hopeful she will have an abortion as she’s only about 7 weeks now but i know a medical one will be too late after about 9 weeks. I’m actually moving across country to get away from her b/c I feel that reality will set in and she’ll realize that I am truly not getting back with her and that she’ll have to raise the kid alone, which is terrible. Some may call that cowardly but I completely disagree. We were both foolish in getting pregnant. I want an abortion. She wants to keep it for now. If i stay with her and act as if it’s all cool and dandy to me, then I’m going against my principles and beliefs on the matter. I’d be betraying myself. If the public and courts would wise up and realize that it’s psychologically a lot better for children to have two parents who both want him/her, then perhaps the law will change and it will require that both parents decide the same thing in order to have a child or not. And, if there is a disagreement, why not let the judge decide instead of the woman? I can already hear women saying that’s not fair. But, let’s take some examples: imagine an immature woman who has displayed terrible decision making her whole life and who gets pregnant with a stable, mature man who is everything that she’s not.. he wants to abort and she wants to keep it. Who is more likely to be able to make a good decision? She has the kid, he leaves, and she’s alone to raise a child but the child and she suffers tremendously b/c she made a poor decision. On the other hand, what if the woman is successful, smart, rational, wise, etc and gets pregnant with a ex-con man who’s very unstable and irrational etc – he wants the abortion and she wants to keep it. what then is correct? she could probably handle it but she’d be raising it alone. And she wouldn’t need the man’s child support if she’s well off herself already. Again, i say, no matter how healthy and mature or unhealthy and immature either parent is, both should have to agree by law if they are going to have a child or not. And in the cases of disagreement, an objective judge can rule as to whether a mother can have a child alone against a father’s wishes or if she must get an abortion if he deems her unfit to be a good mother and the father seems very rational and wise about his choice in wanting an abortion. That might seem radically anti-libertarian and anti-choice but what is best for the human race? overpopulation? single mothers (i’ve read that half of single mothers in the US live below the federal poverty level)? mothers with children who have biological fathers who didn’t want them.. Also, i should note that if you are anti-choice (ie, ‘prolife’), don’t bother commenting back to me as I’m sure you’ll be unable to think objectively about my proposals. I’m interested in open-minded women who are prochoice but who can try to put themsevles in the man’s shoes when the woman wants a child but seems irrational and the man wants an abortion and seems the wiser? thanks
10 July, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Dude
The option of financial abortion and ending forced child support is about ending the traditional male role. Men should have the same rights to change their role, as provider, that women have had to change their roles, domestic warden. It is also about women coming to understand the rights and freedoms they have won without the ability to pull at a man’s finances when they can’t take responsibility of their rights.
Feminism is against traditional roles, unless they effect women. Feminism has made it so that women have the sole rights to control life. When women don’t have the responsibility to fully handle their rights they need to revert back to the traditional male role for support. I love the contradiction. We can change, you can’t, unless it is to something that we approve of. The guilt trips and boo hoo attitude doesn’t work with me. The law needs to run on reason and not sentiment.
If it comes down to being a responsible parent we one again come to a contradiction. This isn’t referring to single mothers, but women who have a husband. Women can give birth and return to work. The child goes into a daycare. This is clearly neglecting the idea of being a mother. Placing an infant in a cesspool of infection with a 3 to 1 ratio to a caregiver should not be applauded, yet it is.
It seems that when women can not fulfill their biological duty to parenting they are applauded, but when a man fails to fulfill his duty to provide he becomes a dead beat. What makes this amusing is that femminism is about men not providing. When a single mother is providing, why would a man have to fall into line with the traditional male role and provide for a life he had no control over in terms of life or no life?
The laws for men in terms of reproduction need to be universal. They should follow the standard that sperm donating men have. The financial commitment to the children is up to each man.
To the women: If you are worried about the consequences of pregnancy there are four options: birth control or abstinance to prevent pregnancy, and an adoption or an abortion if you happen to get pregnant and can’t care for the child.